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  • sholloman81
    replied
    Originally posted by c marvel View Post

    My email says my Paul Tremblay Special Bundle has shipped. I wonder if I am getting just The Little Sleep or perhaps the second title too. ~Cap
    Just received my package and it was only the Little Sleep. I'm assuming that the 2nd book in the bundle will be out end of year. Was surprised that the package only took a week to arrive from overseas. Perhaps the post office is finally caught up from the holidays. As usual with SST, the book looks fantastic. Really like Serra's artwork in the one. Paul also threw in a few more coupons which are always appreciated!

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  • mhatchett
    replied
    Guys, I think how we feel about this issue, is just how we are going to feel about it. I respect all of you and have had literally dozens of positive interactions and sales with many of you over the years. I guess the issue is, where does the decision originate from, a desire to do good and expand the positive book experience or greed. Sometimes it's obvious which is which.

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  • slayn666
    replied
    This conversation has gotten kind of weird.

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  • Martin
    replied
    Originally posted by goathunter View Post

    But why? If you're collecting the series, you have the book. What difference does it make if some books had larger print runs? In fact, the larger print run makes it more likely that you, as a collector of the full series, won't miss out on the book because eager readers beat you to it.

    I do get that it could affect aftermarket prices, but again, that is not even a factor when I buy a book. I buy it because I want it, not because I think about the day I may not want it. But then, I very rarely sell books. I almost always give them away, regardless of aftermarket value.

    Your example of the painting---or comic book or whatever---also amazes me. I just cannot fathom paying prices like those so I can be the only one to own something. I mean, even if I had Jeff Bezos money. I could see if I were setting up a museum and wanted to acquire items for that. But paying $10K so a book can sit on my shelf or a painting can hang on my wall? Nope. But again, that gets back to my lack of interest in profiting off of purchases.
    My views:

    But why? When collecting a series of little books, I have committed to the series through CD and I receive notification before each new edition is announced so I am not worried about missing out. (I do not know if that is the case when buying directly from Borderlands as I do not do business with them.) Is the uniformity of the print run throughout the series critical? No, but it is nice. Why, for the same reason the size of the books in the series matters. I like it that way. Larger point for me. The publisher announced the details of the set that I committed to. Learning that they changed promised details randomly leave a bad teste in my mouth. This goes back to communication.

    Aftermarket value. I really could not care less. When I get rid of a book I generally give it away or trade it at Powell's for well under market value. I have no interest in becoming a book seller.

    Determining value. I have paid what many people consider ridiculous amounts of money on some things, Someone I worked with was absolutely floored when I paid $525 for the Suntup limited edition of Misery. He could not believe I would pay that much for a book that I have other copies of and have already read. People determine what they will pay for something and while I may not share their views, I have no issue with it. I have passed on buying thing I covet because the price did not make sense to me.

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  • goathunter
    replied
    Originally posted by sholloman81 View Post
    That being said, I would have had an issue with the print run increase for multiple reasons including the fact that it throws off the uniformity of the series
    But why? If you're collecting the series, you have the book. What difference does it make if some books had larger print runs? In fact, the larger print run makes it more likely that you, as a collector of the full series, won't miss out on the book because eager readers beat you to it.

    I do get that it could affect aftermarket prices, but again, that is not even a factor when I buy a book. I buy it because I want it, not because I think about the day I may not want it. But then, I very rarely sell books. I almost always give them away, regardless of aftermarket value.

    Your example of the painting---or comic book or whatever---also amazes me. I just cannot fathom paying prices like those so I can be the only one to own something. I mean, even if I had Jeff Bezos money. I could see if I were setting up a museum and wanted to acquire items for that. But paying $10K so a book can sit on my shelf or a painting can hang on my wall? Nope. But again, that gets back to my lack of interest in profiting off of purchases.

    Leave a comment:


  • sholloman81
    replied
    Love this discussion as this topic is very interesting to me. I personally land on the other side of the argument above. In terms of the McCammon book, I have no skin in the game as I didn't order the little book series. That being said, I would have had an issue with the print run increase for multiple reasons including the fact that it throws off the uniformity of the series as well as how it could affect aftermarket prices for collectors. Emotionally speaking, I get wanting to increase the print run so that more McCammon readers can buy and read the book; however, for me, if there was truly a huge demand beyond the original limitation number, then there either should have been a 2nd printing of the book for those who missed out or a trade edition. Now, I don't know how feasible that would be for publishers due to contracts and other factors, but, as a customer, that would be my preferred solution in those situations.

    In terms of people being willing to shell out thousands for a book, I too am a little aghast at some of the aftermarket prices, but, to me, like anything that is bought/sold/collected, it usually boils down to utility and scarcity. For example, I just saw on the newscast last night that a painting is expected to raise around 200 million at auction this week. Why should something that is just canvas and paint or that you can get a much cheaper print of cost so much? I think most collectors would answer that it's because it's a one-of-a kind (limited) item, they would get enjoyment out of owning it, and that it possibly might increase in value and be a good investment.

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  • goathunter
    replied
    Originally posted by swintek View Post
    I think you and I, Hunter, are the only ones here who feel this way. I've tried my best to elucidate my perspective on this matter previously in this thread
    Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen those comments in the thread. You and I agree 100% on all of it. Modern Collectors do largely seem to be FOMO-driven.

    When Borderlands published Robert McCammon's A Little Amber Book of Wicked Shots, they announced the limitation as 600 copies. Some collectors here and on TDT lost their minds, because that was larger than most/any of the other books in the Little Book series. Those 600 sold out very quickly, so they increased it to 750 to meet demand (several months before the book was published), and again, some collectors lost their minds. I didn't get it then, and I don't get it now. IMO, it's better to print more so McCammon readers can buy the book than to limit it to 300 copies just so the series collectors can hoard them and feel superior (for I can see no other reason for it). (Fortunately, in the McCammon case, the increase happened before the signature sheets were signed, so there weren't two different signature sheets (though again, that would be irrelevant for me).)

    I also don't understand the willingness of people to shell out thousands for a book, but TDT is littered with posts from people apparently doing that. Someone the other day posted that he'd pay $10K for a lettered Danse Macabre, which were apparently not commercially available. $10K! For a book! I don't get it.
    Last edited by goathunter; 03-23-2022, 03:31 PM.

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  • slayn666
    replied
    SST (or SubPress, for what it's worth) increasing a limitation prior to publication, notifying their customers, and providing a sound reasoning for doing so is fine in my book. A situation has changed, the publisher is doing what they can to address it, and they have provided ample notice so that anyone that feels aggrieved by their actions can request a refund.

    Borderlands changing limitations on a whim, not generating an entirely new signature sheet and instead having two different ones, one with the original limitation and one with the actual limitation, and not telling anyone, leaving customers to find out via word of mouth and Ebay listings, is a load horse shit.

    Leave a comment:


  • RonClinton
    replied
    Originally posted by swintek View Post

    I think you and I, Hunter, are the only ones here who feel this way. I've tried my best to elucidate my perspective on this matter previously in this thread (starting here: https://forum.cemeterydance.com/foru...197#post190197), but, alas, nobody- at least publicly- agrees with us. "Exclusivity" seems to be the primary concern. In Ron's analogy above- he's still getting exactly- as a physical object- what he wanted: A Red BMW. Not a black one.There's now just 100 more folks who are getting a black one, too. That's not changing what he signed up for one bit- just how many get it. There is a difference here- or maybe it's just me.
    That’s an excellent point, and my chosen BMW analogy was in hindsight a fairly poor one that had little relevance to the collectible market, and my main point regrettably got somewhat buried by it.

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  • swintek
    replied
    Originally posted by goathunter View Post

    I don't mean to single you out, but...why? When I buy a book, it's because I want that book. I don't buy it because it's one of only X copies. I couldn't care less if it's one of X or one of X^Y. The book is either worth the price to me, or it is not. The limitation doesn't matter in the least to me.

    Again, I'm not judging, just genuinely curious: do you care about the limitation because you're just buying the book because of its scarcity? Or is that you think the price should go down if the limitation is later changed, and that rarely happens (though there are all kinds of reasons why that might be)? Something else I'm overlooking?

    (I also couldn't care less if a book is numbered 1, 700, or is a PC. It's the same book.)
    I think you and I, Hunter, are the only ones here who feel this way. I've tried my best to elucidate my perspective on this matter previously in this thread (starting here: https://forum.cemeterydance.com/foru...197#post190197), but, alas, nobody- at least publicly- agrees with us. "Exclusivity" seems to be the primary concern. In Ron's analogy above- he's still getting exactly- as a physical object- what he wanted: A Red BMW. Not a black one.There's now just 100 more folks who are getting a black one, too. That's not changing what he signed up for one bit- just how many get it. There is a difference here- or maybe it's just me.
    Last edited by swintek; 03-23-2022, 06:31 AM.

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  • sholloman81
    replied
    Generally speaking, I am also against raising a limitation number after the fact unless there is an extremely compelling reason to do so. I have never purchased a book with the intention of reselling it. I have never even sold a book online. That being said, if I should ever need to part with one of the limited editions from my collection due to something like a money, health, or space issue, then I like the idea of being able to recoup what I spent if not outright turning a profit. Obviously, fewer copies of a book available should raise aftermarket prices. Because of that, I can see why some collectors might get upset when limitations are changed after the fact. Also, while it is ok to be bummed, I feel like people should complain less when they miss out on things that are by definition limited, whether they be books, concerts, or other events/items. I've missed out on many a limited edition item/event for a variety of reasons, some of them completely out of my control such as tech issues, and I never once thought about contacting the seller/vendor to complain or pressure them to make their item/event less limited. Just my personal opinion. I'm sure others feel differently.

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  • RonClinton
    replied
    While qualifying that I think Paul’s reasoning was sound and thoughtful in that it ensures continuity of the complete set, I would say that I think the reason most disapprove of post-sale changes is because it violates the most fundamental pact between merchant and consumer: When you buy something, it should be delivered *as advertised.* If I order a new red BMW, but BMW decides later to build all black cars, I don’t want to be given a black one….sure, it’s still a BMW, but it’s not what I ordered. I made a reasoned consumer decision based on the information at hand, but if the merchant alters that information, then my decision may or may not have been different at the time of purchase.

    Again, this does not reflect on the SST issue, but is rather just feedback on Hunter’s general question.

    EDIT: It looks like Martin echoed my thoughts above as I was writing this, so forgive the somewhat redundancy of my post.
    Last edited by RonClinton; 03-22-2022, 07:58 PM.

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  • Martin
    replied
    Originally posted by goathunter View Post

    I had forgotten about that particular situation with that Borderlands book. I do agree that that was really screwed up.

    I was thinking of cases like Subterranean announcing 26 lettered editions, then changing it to 52 when it sells out in minutes. I don't see a problem with that, but I've seen plenty of people give them hell over it, even though the book in question was still months away from being published (so not the situation as with the Borderlands book). (The last time I saw Subterranean do that, there were several people on TDT complaining that the lettered they bought was now somehow worth less.) Same with the SST, and the key, as you said, is communication.

    Thanks for the clarification!
    I find that people often like to complain online from the anonymity of a keyboard. I also often find that the complaint has merit but the level that the internet megaphone amplifies it is excessive. In regard to changes made after the sale. Does the limitation size matter to me? No, but I do expect to know the details of what I am buying. If something comes up that requires a change, I expect to be notified of the change. If the change is not acceptable, I will cancel my purchase. I am not familiar with the Sub Press change so I can't speak to it.

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  • goathunter
    replied
    Originally posted by Martin View Post
    Hope that explains my thoughts.
    I had forgotten about that particular situation with that Borderlands book. I do agree that that was really screwed up.

    I was thinking of cases like Subterranean announcing 26 lettered editions, then changing it to 52 when it sells out in minutes. I don't see a problem with that, but I've seen plenty of people give them hell over it, even though the book in question was still months away from being published (so not the situation as with the Borderlands book). (The last time I saw Subterranean do that, there were several people on TDT complaining that the lettered they bought was now somehow worth less.) Same with the SST, and the key, as you said, is communication.

    Thanks for the clarification!

    Leave a comment:


  • Martin
    replied
    Originally posted by goathunter View Post

    I don't mean to single you out, but...why? When I buy a book, it's because I want that book. I don't buy it because it's one of only X copies. I couldn't care less if it's one of X or one of X^Y. The book is either worth the price to me, or it is not. The limitation doesn't matter in the least to me.

    Again, I'm not judging, just genuinely curious: do you care about the limitation because you're just buying the book because of its scarcity? Or is that you think the price should go down if the limitation is later changed, and that rarely happens (though there are all kinds of reasons why that might be)? Something else I'm overlooking?

    (I also couldn't care less if a book is numbered 1, 700, or is a PC. It's the same book.)
    Feel free to single me out. It is the only way I know of to ask me to clarify the intent in what I said. I buy books to read and collect. The actual limitation means little to me. When I add that book to my collection, I want it correctly to reflect what it is. So if I have a book that is '236 of 300' I am not comfortable with another copy of the same book that states '301 of 500'. Is there now a '236 of 500' in addition to my copy? I believe I stated that communication goes a long way.
    I believe this instance is getting the attention it is due to the manner in which Borderlands handled a limitation change in their Little Book series. I have that book and learned of the existence of different limitation pages from this forum. That books was part of a series which I chose to collect all of. That single series has three or four different limitations on books within the series. Again, the only communication I have had on that is from here. If I remember correctly Borderlands marketed the series as each book being limited to 500. Several years ago I had some serious issue with Borderlands. I went several years passing on anything they published. The little books intrigued and I could buy them from CD so I jumped back in.
    I will state again, I have no issue with what was done here and feel that it was communicated well. I will add that any time a publisher does something that makes me think of Borderlands it is not a good thing.

    So, to answer your questions directly:
    Do I care about a books limitations? No, I am not buying a book due to its scarcity.
    Do I think a price should be adjusted if a limitation change occurs? No, Publishers should price the books at a level that allows them to release the books with a profit margin that works for their business model. (The current supply chain issues is requiring the current change to prevent retail price changes. Again, I think he is doing the correct thing in the current marketplace.)
    Is there something you are overlooking? For me it may be that my experience with a publisher who should not be in a position to work directly with his customers jades my feelings. So maybe?

    Hope that explains my thoughts.

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