Contest Entry Discussion

[KT Wagner]

luckily hazing in my fraternity invovled nothing weird; just a lot of drinking. In my mind it wasnt hazing at all

I was hazed in college. Pretty much everyone lived in residence. The senior students woke us at 4am two days in a row. We had to run around campus, wear weird headgear do silly things like jump off a concrete wall in the commons with an egg in the mouth. Some of the stuff done to the guys was worse.

There was also a lot of drinking that first week. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next.

[C.W. LaSart]

BTW, when I asked my alligator about this, he snorted "Because you are needy little pack animals, moron."

Sorry about that, his disposition needs some work.

I'm starting to like that gator!

[mstrom]

Well that’s my $0.02 at least.

BTW, when I asked my alligator about this, he snorted "Because you are needy little pack animals, moron."

Sorry about that, his disposition needs some work.

[C.W. LaSart]

JEEZ! Look what happens when I take a nap! I agree with most of what was said here, except that I must point out that, although most hazing is alcohol related now, it is still just as dangerous. The majority is pretty tame-I had to dress like a baby for a day at my High School to join a ACADEMIC group that did volunteer work and had their own social functions, but it was no big deal. A Big Sister sort of hazing. But kids are still dying of alcohol poisoning from drinking rituals, and others are charged with their deaths. Hazing has either become tame enough to be socially acceptable, or it is being driven underground. Glad I was able to stir you all up!

[mstrom]

I'm from the UK, and while i understand the need for acceptance (most of my novels have that as a underlying theme), I find across the pond it is taken to the nth degree. Any thoughts

Typical English… Just kidding!

Even though I was surrounded by them, I never joined a frat. Yet that has more to do with my deep seated non-conformist persona than anything else. Not sure what it says about me, but I’ve always rebelled against the status quo and have purposely disregarded all pop culture. Or perhaps I am afraid to find out. And yeah, I would be considered a fashion nightmare.

As for the desire to join a frat, I believe that there may be numerous reasons. Yet looking at this from a wider perspective, here in the states we don’t have a sense of history as those of you overseas. We are just a couple hundred years old and have incredibly short memories. Sure there are some significant advantages to this, most notably that we don’t carry national grudges and don’t feel the need to saddle future generations with the disputes of the dead. Hell, it only took a few years for us to become close allies with Japan and Germany after they nearly devastated the civilized world. The downside to all this is that many of us lack a national sense of belonging. For example, if you would ask an average American what their nationality is, most would feel the need to respond as some sort of hyphenated American (ie Swedish-American). Now I am not saying that we are not proud of our country. Regardless of ones political beliefs I would doubt that any American in this forum would dispute our pride. But from an individual perspective, there doesn’t appear to be a common sense of heritage, of belonging, of being part of something larger than ourselves. Hence many of us look for it on a smaller scale, whether it be frats, the military, social clubs, or even forums like this one.

Well that’s my $0.02 at least.

[Craig Wallwork]

Cool Thanks guys for the insight. Really apprecaite it.

[ozmosis7]

So why is there Hazing still? ARe people prepared to be humiliated just to get into all the cool parties? Maybe sex fashions the fool of the clever.

Oh, I don't think it exists in the forms it did when I was in school. Now days its likely more about getting someone trashed and having them do silly things. I was hazed a bit when I played baseball, at various levels, but nothing too bad. And, I think hazing exists in lots of professions as well, such as police or fire dept. Its kind of like a way of welcoming in the new blood, with some light humor and humiliation, in order to ease them into the group I think. It's gotten a bit out of control, but seems to be reeling back in as of late.

[Craig Wallwork]

So why is there Hazing still? Are people prepared to be humiliated just to get into all the cool parties? Maybe the need for sex fashions the fool from the clever.

EDIT - don't answer that one because I've played the fool so many times in my life I'm surprised bells are not hanging from a head.

[ozmosis7]

I agree. My college days were spent much more like the movie, "Animal House." Now days, I think its prestigious resume fodder to get into some of the frats/sororities. Saying all of that, I do know of a handful of instances personally where I have seen a frat brother take care of another, so there is some favoritism there. But, none more than just having the guy as a friend in general. I have also seen one of those transactions blow up in the guys face with him wishing he hadn't helped a brother out. It's all good stuff for stories for sure.

[Dan Hocker]

These days there really isn't any need to be in a fraternity. They aren't nearly as popular as they where years ago. These days the most popular "frats" are educational frats, which really aren't fraternities in the sense we're talking about here. I think the biggest push for frats back in the day, was that it was just a way to meet people and make friends. The other reason people join frats these days are, well lets be honest, the parties.

[Craig Wallwork]

I don't think i can stress that point too - I'm curious because i think it can help some of themes that I like to draw upon within my stories. the psychology of it all is very interesting to me.

[Craig Wallwork]

This i don't understand. Being from England we didn't have Hazing. in truth, i don't think there was a real push for such things in college or university. Maybe, but I never saw any. But yes, Hazing, presumably is just another term for, social acceptance. The push and drive behind this need to be part of some group, or fraternity is a subject I find both alluring in its design yet the most horrific ideology of the past two hundred years or so. It's obviously spawned the film Animal house and the impetus to be part of a group structure was why we have Facebook today. Perhaps there is a greater need to be part of a group system in America. I'm not saying we don't have that need, but i think it's less formal, and not so severe, if I'm hearing you right concerning some of the potential damage, long term, Hazing can cause.

i could potentially offend a lot of people here, but I'm curious more than arrogant when I ask this... why is there a need to join a fraternity? Is it the "perks" it brings, or possibly peer pressure? if you're studying hard and achieving a reasonable academic stature, then presumably once you leave the university you're going to enter the big wide world better equipped to get a good job. Or is that KAPPA DELTA members, who may land bigger jobs after leaving, that are able to get you a job? Nepotism.

Mark Zuckerberg was so hell-bent on being accepted into a group structure, but wasn't considered for any, that this seemingly inconsequence passage in his life (what is university, 5 years, compared to the whole of your life?) led way to him being so embittered he shafted his best friend out of millions of dollars.

I'm reminded too of Rob Lowes' character in St Elmo's Fire who was one of the popular kids in university, a top dog among them, but once he left, was lost in the real world. It is the same with prisoners. They, long term prisoners, spend their lives crawling up the ranks, developing a reputation, and when they get to number 1 spot where no one fucks with them, then they get parole and a week after being in the real world they do some lame crime to get back into prison. On the outside, they were nothing, but on the inside they are someone. Life in the real world stripped them of all their power. I'm thinking too of that character in Shawshank too, i forget his name, the one with the bird in his pocket who ends up packing groceries and then hanging himself.

Yes, please don't be offended by any of this. I'm from the UK, and while i understand the need for acceptance (most of my novels have that as a underlying theme), I find across the pond it is taken to the nth degree. Any thoughts

[mstrom]

Well crap! That's one of the words that I argued to my editor that people would know! Hazing is when you are joining a group (think fraternity) and they make you do something awful and often illegal to join. Like making Freshmen wear diapers all day at school before they can join. It's illegal in the States because it was very prominent in the 80's and there were deaths-but it still goes on.

I was in college during the late 80s (yeah I'm that old) and unfortunately my dorm was next to one of the largest Greek systems in the country. Our dorms were always a target for hazing with fires, thefts, and a whole building once being flooded by clogging the top floor's showers and sinks and turning the spigots on full all night. One winter night when it was 10F below, some rushers came into a local biker bar I happened to be in and stole a bunch of jackets including my own. I have to admit that one of the true highlights of my life was catching them out in the parking lot with about 20 jackets stuffed in the back seat of their car.

Anyways, I will always remember walking to class one morning when I saw this naked guy handcuffed to a tree with the words Insert Here written on his buttocks. I'm sorry but it was just impossible for me to feel even remotely sorry for a guy who'd allow himself to be debased like that.

After a few horrifically sadistic incidents that made national headlines, the university finally clamped down on the whole hazing ritual and it seemed like the rest of the country’s universities followed soon after.

[ozmosis7]

I agree. For me, all of my hazing came of free will. :P

[RJHubbard53]

luckily hazing in my fraternity invovled nothing weird; just a lot of drinking. In my mind it wasnt hazing at all