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Ron K
10-11-2011, 02:34 AM
Hi all,

I got my first actual book in from Cemetery Dance today - The Five by Robert McCammon. It is my first signed novel. I'm pretty excited, as dorky as that sounds. I have a few other actual Cemetery Press books on order but they are all pre-order. Anyway, my question - how do you all protect these books? Do you use Broadart covers? I use them on my collectible graphic novel HC's and I really like them. You may say - well duh, you use 'em and you like 'em so what's the problem? Well, I've been looking at folks collections in the threads (wow) and I don't see many, if any book covers and I wasn't sure why. Is there a drawback to using them? The other thing is that the covers I have are way too big (like DC Absolute and Marvel Omnibus editions) for typical HC novel's and I will need to order some. Anything I need to be aware of, any collecting or protecting tips will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Ron

frik51
10-11-2011, 04:18 AM
I use no protection whatsoever.
Think I'm an exception here.

sk

srboone
10-11-2011, 04:22 AM
That is such a loaded statement, Siep!!! But keeping context in mind... I don't put plastic covers on my books either. The ones I have with plastic covers came that way.

Greenelk
10-11-2011, 05:38 AM
I'm also the same on both counts. My books are protection free unless that's how I recieved them

I also have 3 boys.

RJK1981
10-11-2011, 05:54 AM
Same as everyone else so far, no protection unless I got it that way, and with at least one I removed the cover because it was not done well and would have caused a lot of creases to the DJ. Removed most of the paper backing on one cover because it blocked the art on the backside of the DJ. That one was for Clegg's The Abandoned

srboone
10-11-2011, 06:24 AM
I'm also the same on both counts. My books are protection free unless that's how I recieved them

I also have 3 boys.

No protection, 3 boys. Talk about context!;)

Tito_Villa
10-11-2011, 08:59 AM
I use broadart covers for most of the dustjackets, and if they are too big i trim them down to size :)

Dave1442397
10-11-2011, 12:13 PM
20 years ago I used to cover my "good" books in sticky transparent plastic. Luckily, I didn't do that to anything valuable!

These days I don't bother with anything extra. The books sit on the shelves and no-one else touches them, so there's no need for additional protection.

TerryE
10-11-2011, 02:30 PM
No protection here also (Even though, on my wedding day my mom told me to "remember my raincoat" [It was drizzly that day, but not that bad! But she's always saying funny things]). I like to keep everything just like I got it. The good books are rarely handled and dusted off every so often.

frik51
10-11-2011, 07:24 PM
That is such a loaded statement, Siep!!! But keeping context in mind...

I was.....I was.....Don't forget, I'm just an innocent Dutchie...

sk

peteOcha
10-11-2011, 08:38 PM
This thread delivers! :D

srboone
10-11-2011, 09:36 PM
Anchovies! I want anchovies on mine!

Ron K
10-12-2011, 12:29 AM
I admit, I wrapped it and it looks good ... no, really, I did and it does. Maybe I should post a picture?

I plan on pulling it out right before I get ready to read it. Should be safe enough, right?

Ron K
10-12-2011, 12:30 AM
I use broadart covers for most of the dustjackets, and if they are too big i trim them down to size :)

I did this and it looks great :) Thanks!

Tito_Villa
10-12-2011, 08:08 AM
Yeah i really do think that they look better and it does protect ones that are more valuable!

RJK1981
10-12-2011, 03:45 PM
I do agree that they look good, I just don't think I'd be very good about making sure to get them on my books. So then I'd be spending money on them and doing nothing with them, lol. Maybe if I have time when I am done with school I will think about doing it more.

Some books would likely be more difficult if the slipcase they are housed in was a tight fit.

Some companies put Broadart covers on their books before shipping them to you. The only one I know that does it for sure is Camelot books, though I'm sure others do as well. Would be awesome if CD did that, but definitely understand them not doing it with the amount of books produced and shipped out.

I was pleasantly surprised when I got my slipcased copy of Bad News to discover the owner had put a cover on that one, which looks great (though the book obviously sits in the slipcase)

bsaenz24
10-12-2011, 04:27 PM
I used the Brodart single sheet archival covers. They are very easy to put and on take off with no change to the dust jacket. I would not go without them as they protected the edges from any accidental bumps/tears.

Grant Wootton
10-13-2011, 04:57 AM
I'm of two minds (one in the gutter like some others I may mention ;)) the other, well, I pretty much Brodart all my books (have various sizes of Brodart to suit fairly much all sizes) with the exceptions being those that are (a) slipcased tightly enough so that you can't Brodart them even if you wanted to and (b) those that are traycased, which can cause the book to "pop" sufficiently enough to lift the traycase lid, which just looks evil and puts the traycase out of true. I probably shouldn't bother so much, as I've got reading copies of books that I've had for 20 years with no protection and they still look fine without ever benefiting from any covering - then again, I suppose it's a matter of protecting the investment - big difference between spilling coffee/beer/bourbon/scotch on a year old paperback and doing the same to a Limited or Lettered edition :)

Ron K
10-13-2011, 11:44 PM
Well, thank goodness some people around here use them ... I was starting to feel like some sort of creepy book collector who has to wrap all his "precious" while the rest of the normals relax in the reality that all this mylar isn't necessary.

Ron K
10-13-2011, 11:51 PM
Ok, another newbie question ... do you all feel that these books are really collectible? I have to admit I'm not the type to buy and sale but I do try and often direct my purchases towards collectibles that will maintain or increase in value (hopefully). Is there a big market for the types of edition Cemetery Press produces in the secondary market? One reason I ask is because I noticed a McCammon book that is a prequel to another edition ... when I looked on eBay the prices were somewhat varied (not sure what the original cost) but no one was bidding. Maybe it is more of a "buy it now" market. :) Like I said, I really don't sell anything anyway but the wife is always more responsive when I can say in good faith "hey, this is a good investment".

srboone
10-14-2011, 12:13 AM
I never consider resale value. The books I purchase are ones I want to read and put on a bookshelf in my library. But then, I don't consider myself a collector. And I've stopped "bidding" for items. I find something for sale and I buy it. Or I wait.

jester05jk
10-14-2011, 01:58 AM
Most of the bidding on books takes place in the last 20 minutes. If you have a life it sucks.

Grant Wootton
10-14-2011, 02:49 AM
Ok, another newbie question ... do you all feel that these books are really collectible? I have to admit I'm not the type to buy and sale but I do try and often direct my purchases towards collectibles that will maintain or increase in value (hopefully). Is there a big market for the types of edition Cemetery Press produces in the secondary market? One reason I ask is because I noticed a McCammon book that is a prequel to another edition ... when I looked on eBay the prices were somewhat varied (not sure what the original cost) but no one was bidding. Maybe it is more of a "buy it now" market. :) Like I said, I really don't sell anything anyway but the wife is always more responsive when I can say in good faith "hey, this is a good investment".

Yeah, that's what I tell Connie with all the stuff I buy - "it's not for me darlin' it's for the future" ;) Seriously though, I (like Squire above) want what I want and just go get it (funds depending, of course) although, truth to tell, I do enjoy eBay auctions now and again, purely from a snipers point of view - gets the adrenalin going (then again, if you want a good book at a good price, I've always favoured Abebooks - what you see is what you get, and the price is upfront and I've not had a negative expereince with any of Abe's sellers, which isn't true of eBay, where you get the occasion boofhead that trys to play you :mad: As regards whether all books are collectible, well, to me they are, so long they are (a) attractive, (b) numbered/lettered (c) signed - bugger it, ALL books are collectible ... ;)

Ron K
10-14-2011, 03:02 AM
Most of the bidding on books takes place in the last 20 minutes. If you have a life it sucks.

lol

RJK1981
10-14-2011, 04:37 AM
Most of the bidding on books takes place in the last 20 minutes. If you have a life it sucks.

Depends on the book I guess, and how it's labelled by the seller too. I've had a few books where I got outbid on, but that was also because someone else was willing to pay more than I was, and I have also been on the late bidding end of that as well.

If you are lucky you can find a book that is missing some detail that would make it go for potentially more $$.

There have been a few books that I bid on days before they ended and won with my small bid

TerryE
10-14-2011, 04:50 PM
You can never predict the future market. If you can, skip the books and buy stocks. For me, I like having a great and beautiful book on the shelf by an artist that I adore. Also that it is something rare, that few others have too. It's nice to think of how valuable they are, but that could all disappear in a second (market or damage). I'm also a bit of a completist, so my more precious and collectible books are by the couple authors that I have most everything I can get.

Martin
10-14-2011, 05:17 PM
I never buy a book based on any perceived future value. I buy books that I want to read and own. That said I have a lot of limited editions and I do watch the secondary market just to see what the value is. About 15% of my books sell for a premium now. Some that I would guess would be valued higher are not and some that I would never think would demand a premium do. If you but books based on perceived future value you will be disappointed. Just my opinion.

Ron K
10-14-2011, 08:15 PM
Thanks for all the feedback. This is really good commentary from all.

Ron K
10-14-2011, 08:17 PM
I never buy a book based on any perceived future value. I buy books that I want to read and own. That said I have a lot of limited editions and I do watch the secondary market just to see what the value is. About 15% of my books sell for a premium now. Some that I would guess would be valued higher are not and some that I would never think would demand a premium do. If you but books based on perceived future value you will be disappointed. Just my opinion.

Ditto Martin, I collect graphic novels and comics and NEVER buy for percieved future value ... BUT the combination of a product I really love (for whatever reason) and the possibility of percieved future value is really a hot button for me, lol.

Ron K
10-14-2011, 08:29 PM
You can never predict the future market. If you can, skip the books and buy stocks. For me, I like having a great and beautiful book on the shelf by an artist that I adore. Also that it is something rare, that few others have too. It's nice to think of how valuable they are, but that could all disappear in a second (market or damage). I'm also a bit of a completist, so my more precious and collectible books are by the couple authors that I have most everything I can get.

I'm thinking this is the route I will eventually head in this hobby, focusing on the authors I really like and trying to collect what I can get my hands on. My initial purchases have been a little all over the board but I'm realizing this is going to need some focus. And great point about damage, great point about life in general, no reason to pretend any of it is bullet proof ... if you aren't enjoying it now in some sense then you run the risk of great disappoinment investing in something when tomorrow never comes.

Did I just quote Garth Brooks? Geeze ...

TerryE
10-20-2011, 06:16 PM
Nah, that was the Beatles. Oops, maybe not. That was "Tomorrow Never Knows".

theenormityofitall
11-09-2011, 12:44 AM
Ok, another newbie question ... do you all feel that these books are really collectible? I have to admit I'm not the type to buy and sale but I do try and often direct my purchases towards collectibles that will maintain or increase in value (hopefully). Is there a big market for the types of edition Cemetery Press produces in the secondary market? One reason I ask is because I noticed a McCammon book that is a prequel to another edition ... when I looked on eBay the prices were somewhat varied (not sure what the original cost) but no one was bidding. Maybe it is more of a "buy it now" market. :) Like I said, I really don't sell anything anyway but the wife is always more responsive when I can say in good faith "hey, this is a good investment".
LOL you sound just like me. 98% of the time I buy books I know (or hope) will increase in value....rarely do I buy one because I want to read it unless it's a $1.05 PB on Amazon.
If you want the most collectible stuff, stick with King limiteds or signed trades....if you're not lucky enough to win some in lotteries like from Grant, then get them from Betts. Or try to pay attention to small presses no one's heard of and see if they're publishing something by a well known author and on top of that, a low number of limiteds. Just Google small press, etc. Two perfect examples are the original limited of The Woman by Ketchum and Dracula by Kings Way Press.

And why do I seem to be the only one who has always used Gaylord DJ protectors and not Brodart?? I think it may be because of the first book I bought in the 80's that was collectible from the Overlook Connection, had a Gaylord cover on it.

jhanic
11-12-2011, 01:12 AM
I specialize in Stephen King proofs. I keep them in archival quality plastic bags. This keeps them dust-free and well protected.

John

sdkdmd
12-11-2011, 12:31 AM
Not only do I Brodart my DJ, I also bag them.

theenormityofitall
12-13-2011, 06:05 PM
I do the same with mine as well, and if I hadn't done that with all those UK editions by Laymon, they'd all have yellow pages today. I wasn't even aware that Headline used rotten paper back then until rather recently. My copy of Funland still looks like it was published yesterday...

Tree705
12-13-2011, 06:52 PM
And why do I seem to be the only one who has always used Gaylord DJ protectors and not Brodart?? I think it may be because of the first book I bought in the 80's that was collectible from the Overlook Connection, had a Gaylord cover on it.

Your not alone I also use Gaylord, always have always will.

theenormityofitall
12-13-2011, 06:55 PM
Your not alone I also use Gaylord, always have always will.
Yeah, but it really is true that Brodart makes the DJ art look "brighter". But I'm just too used to Gaylord and looking at Brodart's website, I'm not sure I could even put them on myself. With my luck I'd probably tear the dust jacket.
I'm not going to even risk trying to put one on the limited of IT.

srboone
12-13-2011, 07:32 PM
Welcome back, Rich! How are things going?

bsaenz24
12-13-2011, 07:36 PM
Yeah, but it really is true that Brodart makes the DJ art look "brighter". But I'm just too used to Gaylord and looking at Brodart's website, I'm not sure I could even put them on myself. With my luck I'd probably tear the dust jacket.
I'm not going to even risk trying to put one on the limited of IT.

Rich, the Brodart "single serving" covers are VERY easy to put on. Just make sure you buy the extra loan ones for the height you want.

Dan Hocker
12-13-2011, 07:51 PM
I'm not sure how well the IT books will fit in the slipcases with covers on. There's not a whole lot of extra room.

theenormityofitall
12-13-2011, 11:49 PM
Then I'll probably just be very careful with it. Besides, it's a traycase with a lid, right? So that should keep it safe, and I think I better buy an extra one just in case.

theenormityofitall
12-13-2011, 11:53 PM
Rich, the Brodart "single serving" covers are VERY easy to put on. Just make sure you buy the extra loan ones for the height you want.

I'll have to try some of those. Can you or someone else please give me the exact links to what kind I should by?? I especially want some for my Secretary of Dreams books and they're pretty big. If I buy that type size, can I cut them down to fit all my other books by CD? I'll probably need about 25-30 and use my Gaylord covers for my non-fiction stuff like I've done so much of in the past.

I ask for the link because when I went there in the past, they had 2 different types of covers (I think) and I wasn't sure what one to get.

Dan Hocker
12-14-2011, 02:49 AM
Then I'll probably just be very careful with it. Besides, it's a traycase with a lid, right? So that should keep it safe, and I think I better buy an extra one just in case.

Oh I was talking about the gift edition. I'm not sure how tight the fit is with the signed edition.

Grant Wootton
12-14-2011, 03:09 AM
I'll have to try some of those. Can you or someone else please give me the exact links to what kind I should by?? I especially want some for my Secretary of Dreams books and they're pretty big. If I buy that type size, can I cut them down to fit all my other books by CD? I'll probably need about 25-30 and use my Gaylord covers for my non-fiction stuff like I've done so much of in the past.

I ask for the link because when I went there in the past, they had 2 different types of covers (I think) and I wasn't sure what one to get.

Hiya Scott - I buy a lot of Brodart and Mylar stuff from the US, the following is the link to the eBay store of the people I deal with (they're great on price, delivery and excellent on customer service - and, they'll be happy to answer any questions that you may have). Good luck !!!!

http://stores.ebay.com.au/John-Balls-Books?_trksid=p4340.l2563

theenormityofitall
12-17-2011, 01:11 AM
Thanks Grant. But if I remember correctly, SOD was something like 10 by 13"...so what size would I get? And if I'm wrong about the size, can someone hear tell me the correct size so I don't buy the wrong ones?
Thanks in advance!

Grant Wootton
12-17-2011, 05:17 AM
Thanks Grant. But if I remember correctly, SOD was something like 10 by 13"...so what size would I get? And if I'm wrong about the size, can someone hear tell me the correct size so I don't buy the wrong ones?
Thanks in advance!

Hiya Scott, for SoD you need to purchase a Brodart roll (rather than the individual covers) that way you can cut it to size - Here's the link to the product that I used on my SoD's :)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10-YD-16-Brodart-Fold-On-Book-Covers-ARCHIVAL-Mylar-/290518994682?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a4480efa#ht_851wt_906

theenormityofitall
12-19-2011, 03:40 AM
Hiya Scott, for SoD you need to purchase a Brodart roll (rather than the individual covers) that way you can cut it to size - Here's the link to the product that I used on my SoD's :)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10-YD-16-Brodart-Fold-On-Book-Covers-ARCHIVAL-Mylar-/290518994682?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a4480efa#ht_851wt_906
Thanks Grant, but can I get them cheaper somewhere else?? And can I cut them to fit other books? Well, you already said I can cut it to size, but how about other books? And is there a lot of tape involved like with Gaylord?

Grant Wootton
12-19-2011, 05:04 AM
Thanks Grant, but can I get them cheaper somewhere else?? And can I cut them to fit other books? Well, you already said I can cut it to size, but how about other books? And is there a lot of tape involved like with Gaylord?

I imagine you could source these products cheaper elsewhere, I use these guys as a preference because they've got great customer service, deliver super fast to Australia and are priced right for me. Depending on what you're wanting to cover, you use either a "standard" sized (9 1/2" - 10") centre loading covers http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/50-9-1-2-x-20-Brodart-ARCHIVAL-Fold-on-Book-Covers-/260657880584?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb06b9e08#ht_785wt_1033 and for everything else I order bottom loading rolls http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-YD-10-Brodart-Just-a-Fold-III-Archival-Book-Covers-/260885827543?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbe01cfd7#ht_785wt_1033 to the height I want to use :D As regards tape, if you do the creases just right, you don't really need to use any tape. If you're like me (ie- rarely gets the creases right) use three small pieces to the left, centre and right of the reverse of the sheet and you're good to go).

Tree705
12-19-2011, 05:12 PM
Welcome back, Rich! How are things going?Really good I have a new job and an iPad2,much easier to read on. In fact Ive read about 5 books so far, it works great.

Dave1442397
12-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Really good I have a new job and an iPad2,much easier to read on. In fact Ive read about 5 books so far, it works great.

That's good to hear! It sucks being laid off with no new job in sight...been there, done that.

I read a lot on my iPad 1, but I've been considering buying a Kindle just for reading because it's smaller and the battery lasts so long on a single charge.

theenormityofitall
12-22-2011, 06:49 PM
I imagine you could source these products cheaper elsewhere, I use these guys as a preference because they've got great customer service, deliver super fast to Australia and are priced right for me. Depending on what you're wanting to cover, you use either a "standard" sized (9 1/2" - 10") centre loading covers http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/50-9-1-2-x-20-Brodart-ARCHIVAL-Fold-on-Book-Covers-/260657880584?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb06b9e08#ht_785wt_1033 and for everything else I order bottom loading rolls http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-YD-10-Brodart-Just-a-Fold-III-Archival-Book-Covers-/260885827543?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbe01cfd7#ht_785wt_1033 to the height I want to use :D As regards tape, if you do the creases just right, you don't really need to use any tape. If you're like me (ie- rarely gets the creases right) use three small pieces to the left, centre and right of the reverse of the sheet and you're good to go).

Ok, Grant. I just ordered some yesterday. But I'm still worried...I always worry about something that's new because I hate change LOL.
But in case I missed something here or don't remember, why is it that people here prefer Brodart over Gaylord? Is it like I've said, because the former makes the artwork look "brighter"?

theenormityofitall
12-22-2011, 06:55 PM
Oh I was talking about the gift edition. I'm not sure how tight the fit is with the signed edition.

Ok. But if it's in a traycase, then I won't worry too much. I'm sure I'd tear it if I tried putting a cover on it. But I'd like to get an extra DJ just in case like I have for some of my other King limiteds.....I guess I just can buy one here without telephoning or emailing about it.

But I wanted that Gift edition of IT and then I went and bought some other books I just couldn't pass up when I saw the prices were wrong (too low). That limited of The Wildman by Rick Hautala with a wooden case and a remarque I got for just 80 bucks, I'm sure it was supposed to be $180 :). But even that seems too cheap.

theenormityofitall
12-22-2011, 06:58 PM
Hey Dan or Brian...... I just went and looked for a spare DJ for IT and all I see are some for FDNS and Blockade Billy. I think it was Brian who told me in an email there would be spares available. Will you be offering them soon, or what?

theenormityofitall
12-22-2011, 07:15 PM
Ok, can any of you guys tell me if these are the things I should get for SOD and other big books? (and smaller ones as well)



http://www.shopbrodart.com/Book-Jacket-Cover/_/Brodart-Fold-On-Archival-Book-Jacket-Covers?q=10427009



http://www.shopbrodart.com/supplies/cleaning/_/Absorene-Dirt-Eraser?q=75234001



http://www.shopbrodart.com/supplies/cleaning/_/Adhesive-Pick-Up-Rubber-Cement-Eraser?q=37343001

Dan Hocker
12-22-2011, 07:18 PM
Hey Dan or Brian...... I just went and looked for a spare DJ for IT and all I see are some for FDNS and Blockade Billy. I think it was Brian who told me in an email there would be spares available. Will you be offering them soon, or what?

Umm I have a bunch of DJ's for new titles I haven't added to the site yet. If you need a replacement because the one on your book is damaged just email Mindy and we'll send one out to you. If you just want an extra one, they probably won't be on sale on the site till after the new year as we have to do inventory as soon as we're done shipping IT.

theenormityofitall
12-22-2011, 07:21 PM
Umm I have a bunch of DJ's for new titles I haven't added to the site yet. If you need a replacement because the one on your book is damaged just email Mindy and we'll send one out to you. If you just want an extra one, they probably won't be on sale on the site till after the new year as we have to do inventory as soon as we're done shipping IT.

Ok.

Grant Wootton
12-23-2011, 07:44 AM
Ok, Grant. I just ordered some yesterday. But I'm still worried...I always worry about something that's new because I hate change LOL.
But in case I missed something here or don't remember, why is it that people here prefer Brodart over Gaylord? Is it like I've said, because the former makes the artwork look "brighter"?

No idea about the Gaylord brand - the only Gaylord I've heard of is Gaylord Motherfocker, and I don't guess he's relevant to anything book protection wise :p Seriously though, Brodart was recommended to me years ago, I tried it, I liked it, and as they say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" .... :) You'll be fine Scott, if I can use the stuff without damaging my books, then anyone can use it.

theenormityofitall
12-24-2011, 12:38 AM
Umm I have a bunch of DJ's for new titles I haven't added to the site yet. If you need a replacement because the one on your book is damaged just email Mindy and we'll send one out to you. If you just want an extra one, they probably won't be on sale on the site till after the new year as we have to do inventory as soon as we're done shipping IT.

It arrived ok so I'm not gonna lie and ask for a free one since mine was damaged.
I'll wait until you have them up on the site and buy an extra one at that time.

theenormityofitall
12-24-2011, 12:44 AM
No idea about the Gaylord brand - the only Gaylord I've heard of is Gaylord Motherfocker, and I don't guess he's relevant to anything book protection wise :p Seriously though, Brodart was recommended to me years ago, I tried it, I liked it, and as they say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" .... :) You'll be fine Scott, if I can use the stuff without damaging my books, then anyone can use it.

LMAO. Yep, I heard of that Gaylord Motherfocker. What a dirty Motherfocker he is too.

But ok, Grant. I'll take your word for it and buy them but if I ruin one of my dust jackets then I expect you to pay for the entire book, ok? If their not available online somewhere then you can just wire me the money or do it via paypal if you have an account there :) Thanks buddy.

Grant Wootton
12-24-2011, 09:25 PM
LMAO. Yep, I heard of that Gaylord Motherfocker. What a dirty Motherfocker he is too.

But ok, Grant. I'll take your word for it and buy them but if I ruin one of my dust jackets then I expect you to pay for the entire book, ok? If their not available online somewhere then you can just wire me the money or do it via paypal if you have an account there :) Thanks buddy.

Yeah, sure Scott, no worries, no problem .... and ..... 2564

theenormityofitall
12-25-2011, 06:25 AM
LOL You're all great people out there but Grant, you're defintely somethin' else. LOL. That was a great response!

Grant Wootton
12-25-2011, 06:53 AM
lol you're all great people out there but grant, you're defintely somethin' else. Lol. That was a great response!

:d:d:d