Film noir

[Daninsky]

I would consider Payback to be Neo-noir and a very fine example of it, especially the DC. Are you actually interested in Neo-noir suggestions for this thread or only classic (pre-1960) noir?

In terms of classic noir, I would absolutely consider the following to be essential:
1. The Glass Key. This film has actually been made three times for the big screen, but I am recommending Stuart Heisler's 1942 masterwork. Veronica Lake fogs up the screen with her sultry slinking and the chemistry between Bendix and Ladd is an endless pleasure to watch. "You and me's gonna go upstairs to a room that's too small for you to fall down in. That way we don't waste no time with you havin to get up again every time I knock ya out."

2. Beat the Devil. Not nearly as solid an entry into the genre as either of his other most notable efforts (Maltese Falcon and Asphalt Jungle, both of which are already on your list), this is still a seriously entertaining John Huston film. Tongues are firmly held in cheek throughout, with Bogie looking on the perpetual verge of breaking into wheezing guffaws with every delivery. Huston and Capote tag-teamed the screenplay with the primary intention of parodying the genre as a whole, but Maltese Falcon specifically. And I really feel they did a bangup job. I watch this one at least once a year and it seems to get funnier and more clever with each viewing. "The only thing standing between you and a watery grave is your wits, and that's not my idea of adequate protection."

3. Gun Crazy. Very energetic take on the Bonnie and Clyde motif, driven largely by the engaging performance of Peggy Cummins. She's a real firecracker in this film and an absolute pleasure to watch. Tarantino used her character in this movie as a partial template for more than one of his future female leads. Side note: I got to chat with her a few years ago at Noir City in KC. Still a firecracker at 89.

4. The Blue Dahlia. Joel McCrea may have said "Life's too short for two films with Veronica Lake," but that clearly only applies to co-starring and not to viewership. She is in even finer form here than she was in TGK, with Ladd and Bendix both along for the ride again, as well. Especially amusing to watch this back to back with TGK, as Bendix and Ladd are war buddies and best friends instead of embittered antagonists. Chandler wrote the script for this one, his only produced screenplay, if I recall correctly. Predictably, it's a doozy. Pretty fun series of plot twists to follow as this one unfolds. "What happened to Malibu?" "I suppose it's where we left it."

Anyway, there's a quick handful of suggestions off the top of my head. I'll throw some more out later when I look at my shelves. And do let me know if you're interested in Neo-noir entries, as well. I have a good number of those that I recommend quite highly.

[Tommy]

Lumet's 12 Angry Men is a must for any movie-lover.

The Wrong Man is one of Hitchocck's most frightening films. It puts me in mind of Kafka's The Trial which, is also a great film by Orson Welles. I believe it is the only one of his films that Hitchcock provides with some narration.

Interesting but maybe not, 12 Angry Men was the very next film Fonda did after The Wrong Man.

Since we've gone and added color films to the list (some noir snobs would find that unacceptable), some great "newer" noirs: Body Heat, Basic Instinct, After Dark, My Sweet, The Long Goodbye, Sin City, House of Games, Farewell, My Lovely (75), Chinatown, Night Moves

[bugen]

Oh no, I'm not adding Payback in there, I just wanted to mention it because I loved it so much and thought it was a great, modern shot at the type. The list is a little loose, but I'm trying to keep it pretty traditional with the only color film as Rope (which is not really a great idea but the damned thing was so dark and some consider it noir so I left it in). You're totally right--the whole thing goes haywire if it gets opened up to color.

I've seen Body Heat, Basic Instinct, Sin City, House of Games and Chinatown, and there's still a long way to go in the traditional list, but I'll check out the others you have listed when I get a chance. One of them I've never even heard of, and those are the best to come across! Thanks for the recommendations!

[Tommy]

[Tommy]

Some Bette Davis films that are considered noir: The Petrified Forest, Deception, The Letter, Marked Woman

[Theli]

I have a vague recollection of seeing Payback many years ago, but can't remember it at all. Pretty sure it's based on the Richard Stark (Donald Westlake) Parker novel The Hunter. I really liked that book when I'd read it. It was pretty unique at the time, I think, quite dark, but not without an ounce of comedy. I imagine it influenced Lawrence Block's works a bit.

[Theli]

I would consider Payback to be Neo-noir and a very fine example of it, especially the DC. Are you actually interested in Neo-noir suggestions for this thread or only classic (pre-1960) noir?

In terms of classic noir, I would absolutely consider the following to be essential:
1. The Glass Key. This film has actually been made three times for the big screen, but I am recommending Stuart Heisler's 1942 masterwork. Veronica Lake fogs up the screen with her sultry slinking and the chemistry between Bendix and Ladd is an endless pleasure to watch. "You and me's gonna go upstairs to a room that's too small for you to fall down in. That way we don't waste no time with you havin to get up again every time I knock ya out."

2. Beat the Devil. Not nearly as solid an entry into the genre as either of his other most notable efforts (Maltese Falcon and Asphalt Jungle, both of which are already on your list), this is still a seriously entertaining John Huston film. Tongues are firmly held in cheek throughout, with Bogie looking on the perpetual verge of breaking into wheezing guffaws with every delivery. Huston and Capote tag-teamed the screenplay with the primary intention of parodying the genre as a whole, but Maltese Falcon specifically. And I really feel they did a bangup job. I watch this one at least once a year and it seems to get funnier and more clever with each viewing. "The only thing standing between you and a watery grave is your wits, and that's not my idea of adequate protection."

3. Gun Crazy. Very energetic take on the Bonnie and Clyde motif, driven largely by the engaging performance of Peggy Cummins. She's a real firecracker in this film and an absolute pleasure to watch. Tarantino used her character in this movie as a partial template for more than one of his future female leads. Side note: I got to chat with her a few years ago at Noir City in KC. Still a firecracker at 89.

4. The Blue Dahlia. Joel McCrea may have said "Life's too short for two films with Veronica Lake," but that clearly only applies to co-starring and not to viewership. She is in even finer form here than she was in TGK, with Ladd and Bendix both along for the ride again, as well. Especially amusing to watch this back to back with TGK, as Bendix and Ladd are war buddies and best friends instead of embittered antagonists. Chandler wrote the script for this one, his only produced screenplay, if I recall correctly. Predictably, it's a doozy. Pretty fun series of plot twists to follow as this one unfolds. "What happened to Malibu?" "I suppose it's where we left it."

Anyway, there's a quick handful of suggestions off the top of my head. I'll throw some more out later when I look at my shelves. And do let me know if you're interested in Neo-noir entries, as well. I have a good number of those that I recommend quite highly.

I'll second Blue Dahlia! Been a while since I'd watched it, but I do remember enjoying it well enough!

As for Beat the Devil, that one slipped by me somehow, I'll definitely be looking into it.

[Tommy]

Beat the Devil is great! One of the few screenplays Truman Capote wrote. Blue Dahlia is great too.

Also, Key Largo and High Sierra.

[Theli]

I like Key Largo, but didn't love it. Still worth a watch of course.

[bugen]

I would consider Payback to be Neo-noir and a very fine example of it, especially the DC. Are you actually interested in Neo-noir suggestions for this thread or only classic (pre-1960) noir?

In terms of classic noir, I would absolutely consider the following to be essential:
1. The Glass Key. This film has actually been made three times for the big screen, but I am recommending Stuart Heisler's 1942 masterwork. Veronica Lake fogs up the screen with her sultry slinking and the chemistry between Bendix and Ladd is an endless pleasure to watch. "You and me's gonna go upstairs to a room that's too small for you to fall down in. That way we don't waste no time with you havin to get up again every time I knock ya out."

2. Beat the Devil. Not nearly as solid an entry into the genre as either of his other most notable efforts (Maltese Falcon and Asphalt Jungle, both of which are already on your list), this is still a seriously entertaining John Huston film. Tongues are firmly held in cheek throughout, with Bogie looking on the perpetual verge of breaking into wheezing guffaws with every delivery. Huston and Capote tag-teamed the screenplay with the primary intention of parodying the genre as a whole, but Maltese Falcon specifically. And I really feel they did a bangup job. I watch this one at least once a year and it seems to get funnier and more clever with each viewing. "The only thing standing between you and a watery grave is your wits, and that's not my idea of adequate protection."

3. Gun Crazy. Very energetic take on the Bonnie and Clyde motif, driven largely by the engaging performance of Peggy Cummins. She's a real firecracker in this film and an absolute pleasure to watch. Tarantino used her character in this movie as a partial template for more than one of his future female leads. Side note: I got to chat with her a few years ago at Noir City in KC. Still a firecracker at 89.

4. The Blue Dahlia. Joel McCrea may have said "Life's too short for two films with Veronica Lake," but that clearly only applies to co-starring and not to viewership. She is in even finer form here than she was in TGK, with Ladd and Bendix both along for the ride again, as well. Especially amusing to watch this back to back with TGK, as Bendix and Ladd are war buddies and best friends instead of embittered antagonists. Chandler wrote the script for this one, his only produced screenplay, if I recall correctly. Predictably, it's a doozy. Pretty fun series of plot twists to follow as this one unfolds. "What happened to Malibu?" "I suppose it's where we left it."

Anyway, there's a quick handful of suggestions off the top of my head. I'll throw some more out later when I look at my shelves. And do let me know if you're interested in Neo-noir entries, as well. I have a good number of those that I recommend quite highly.

Welcome to the thread Daninsky, and thanks for the recommendations! Trying to stay (mostly) away from neo-noir at the moment to keep things more focused, at least for the main list. I had Gun Crazy in my queue to check out to see if it should be included, but I'm going to add it in now along with the others you mention. Those quotes are awesome!

[Daninsky]

Welcome to the thread Daninsky, and thanks for the recommendations! Trying to stay (mostly) away from neo-noir at the moment to keep things more focused, at least for the main list. I had Gun Crazy in my queue to check out to see if it should be included, but I'm going to add it in now along with the others you mention. Those quotes are awesome!

Thanks! Noir has always been such a tricky genre/sub-genre/style to define. Parameters always help to keep lists more concise. My wife and I were just discussing this very subject over dinner last week, bantering back and forth as to which elements were 'essential' to qualify a film as noir for either of us. And how many of those were also required for 'Neo-noir', as well as which ones were allowed to evolve in order to fulfill the criteria of the latter. For me, trying to draw a clear distinction between 'crime drama' and 'film noir' with classic pictures has always been a challenge.

One in particular that she and I got stuck on was Elia Kazan's On the Waterfront. She insisted it was a straight-up 'crime drama', as its lead character was not a criminal, law enforcement, a war vet, or a PI...any one of which is a requirement for a noir protagonist in her mind. I felt that a former prizefighter-turned-dockworker was more than acceptable to fulfill leading man criteria for a noir picture. A rather silly anecdote, I suppose, but I included it largely to point out how easy it is to disagree on nuance when categorizing films as noir or Neo-noir.

Speaking of which...I absolutely believe that the aforementioned On the Waterfront should be in your list. And, at the risk of sounding contrary, I wouldn't even begin to classify 12 Angry Men as a noir picture. To me that's a straight up (excellent) adaptation of a stage-play courtroom drama that takes place entirely in one room! It's all so subjective, hahaha.

[Theli]

The Set-Up also is another film noir with a boxer as its central character. It does feature low-level criminal activity in it, a down on his luck main character, character drama between men and women (specifically the boxer and his wife, who wants him to quit), so in many ways those boxes are check marked. Still the boxer is not your average film noir main character. However, as I had mentioned earlier in the thread, I think the tone, cinematography and atmosphere does more to create film noir than it's story elements, or at least in equal parts.

Great movie too, The Set-Up, I was going save the recommendation for a bit later when you'd ran through the majority of the greats.

[bugen]

On the Waterfront is on the way to my doorstep, but with your recommendation I'll just include it now.

The lines are blurry for sure, but I'm tending to include crime drama at least some of the time as long as timing, look and attitude fits. The characters tend to skew toward the cynical, which often gets them involved in crime in the first place, and cynical is one of the major keys to noir.

*Theli, The Set-Up is another I'd either come across or someone here had mentioned. Netflix didn't have it so I ended up ordering a cheap copy. From what I could tell it may absolutely end up qualifying as one of the greats. I hope so, and thanks for mentioning it!

**And Tommy, I've got my eye on Key Largo.

[Daninsky]

cynical is one of the major keys to noir.

I love just how many keys there are. Means that whatever company you're keeping, there's sure to be some educational and fascinating discussion to be had once the topic turns to Noir and its many keys, doors, facets, incarnations, etc.

Great thread, by the way!

[Tommy]

Great thread, by the way!

I'll second that! I did warn bugen I was going to be a total post-whore on this thread.

I'll second The Set-Up

I've never thought of On the Waterfront as noir. It's just never had that energy for me.